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	<title>Comments on: Trading 101: Expectancy</title>
	<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/</link>
	<description>Stock market commentary &#38; trading ideas.  Stock market weblog (blog), swing trading, day trading, stock picks, technical analysis, stock charts, stocks.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-529</guid>
		<description>seems like 6 of one and half-a-dozen of the other to me.  The actual results are what drives the expectancy not the other way around.  I'm fine with the formula using the average win &#38; loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>seems like 6 of one and half-a-dozen of the other to me.  The actual results are what drives the expectancy not the other way around.  I&#8217;m fine with the formula using the average win &amp; loss.</p>
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		<title>By: Technicator.NET</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-528</link>
		<dc:creator>Technicator.NET</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-528</guid>
		<description>I wonder if it would make a significant difference if the expectancy formula was slightly altered to:

Expectancy = (Probability of Win * Median Win) - (Probability of Loss * Median Loss)

This is because most trades don't end up with the same average winning. In fact, many get their biggest wins from a few trades each year. Thus, the average would be skewed and make the expectancy look better than what it should be. Perhaps if we want to get even more sophisticated with trading expectancy that we also incorporate variance. 

Why? Because the higher the variance, the riskier and less reliable the results will be. For example, consider these two payoff trees:
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$900&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$600
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;/&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;/
&#160;&#160;&#160;/50%&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;/50%
&#160;/&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;/
[X]&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;[Y]
&#160;\&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;\
&#160;&#160;&#160;\50%&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;\50%
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;\&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;\
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$100&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$400

If they were payoffs will you prefer? For both on average, the expected value is $500, yet Y is the better choice in the real life situation. The variance (standard deviation) of X is greater than Y, thus more volitile and less reliable.

Just a thought, what do you think, Mike?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if it would make a significant difference if the expectancy formula was slightly altered to:</p>
<p>Expectancy = (Probability of Win * Median Win) - (Probability of Loss * Median Loss)</p>
<p>This is because most trades don&#8217;t end up with the same average winning. In fact, many get their biggest wins from a few trades each year. Thus, the average would be skewed and make the expectancy look better than what it should be. Perhaps if we want to get even more sophisticated with trading expectancy that we also incorporate variance. </p>
<p>Why? Because the higher the variance, the riskier and less reliable the results will be. For example, consider these two payoff trees:<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$900&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$600<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/50%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/50%<br />
&nbsp;/&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/<br />
[X]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[Y]<br />
&nbsp;\&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\50%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\50%<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$100&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$400</p>
<p>If they were payoffs will you prefer? For both on average, the expected value is $500, yet Y is the better choice in the real life situation. The variance (standard deviation) of X is greater than Y, thus more volitile and less reliable.</p>
<p>Just a thought, what do you think, Mike?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-527</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-527</guid>
		<description>Firace,

Good catch.  I've corrected that example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firace,</p>
<p>Good catch.  I&#8217;ve corrected that example.</p>
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		<title>By: Firace</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-526</link>
		<dc:creator>Firace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-526</guid>
		<description>Hi Mike, 

thanks for a very interesting post about Expectancy. I would like to bring the below (minor) mistake to your attention though:

If losing trades lose 4%, the first formula in your example should be 

(0.3 * $1,000) - (0.7 * $400) = $20

not

(0.3 * $1,000) - (0.7 * $300) = $90


which is still &#62; 0 by the way so your 
example still makes sense :)

Greetings from Brussels, Belgium</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mike, </p>
<p>thanks for a very interesting post about Expectancy. I would like to bring the below (minor) mistake to your attention though:</p>
<p>If losing trades lose 4%, the first formula in your example should be </p>
<p>(0.3 * $1,000) - (0.7 * $400) = $20</p>
<p>not</p>
<p>(0.3 * $1,000) - (0.7 * $300) = $90</p>
<p>which is still &gt; 0 by the way so your<br />
example still makes sense <img src='http://tradermike.net/smilies/yahoo_smiley.gif' alt='&#58;&#41;' class='wp-smiley' width='18' height='18' title='&#58;&#41;' /></p>
<p>Greetings from Brussels, Belgium</p>
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		<title>By: Blogcritics</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-531</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogcritics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-531</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Review of 'Trend Following'&lt;/strong&gt;

Michael Covel's 'Trend Following: How Great Traders Make Millions in Up or Down Markets' will certainly be regarded as a classic investment book.  Everybody involved in the markets should read this book.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Review of &#8216;Trend Following&#8217;</strong></p>
<p>Michael Covel&#8217;s &#8216;Trend Following: How Great Traders Make Millions in Up or Down Markets&#8217; will certainly be regarded as a classic investment book.  Everybody involved in the markets should read this book.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-525</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-525</guid>
		<description>I'll have to check that out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll have to check that out.</p>
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		<title>By: Duru</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-524</link>
		<dc:creator>Duru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2004 05:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-524</guid>
		<description>Mr. Taleb is the man. For those of you who have not had the opportunity to study decision science or something similar, his book "&lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/158799190X/tradermike-20" rel="nofollow"&gt;Fooled by Randomness&lt;/a&gt;" might just revolutionize the way you think - not just about investing, but about life!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Taleb is the man. For those of you who have not had the opportunity to study decision science or something similar, his book &#8220;<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/158799190X/tradermike-20" rel="nofollow">Fooled by Randomness</a>&#8221; might just revolutionize the way you think - not just about investing, but about life!</p>
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		<title>By: Karsten</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-523</link>
		<dc:creator>Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-523</guid>
		<description>The problem with expectancy is that it goes contrary to what is hard-wired into our brains. Most people believe that it is more important to be right often vs. being right at the correct time. 

This discussion of frequency vs. magnitude is leads to thinking in terms of expected value, i.e. being right when it counts. Problem is that people tend to prefer asymetric payoffs. 

Nassim Taleb puts it this way: "In some strategies and life situations, it is said, one gambles dollars to win a succession of pennies. In others one risks a succession of pennies to win dollars. While one would think that the second category would be more appealing to investors and economic agents, we have an overwhelming evidence of the popularity of the first."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with expectancy is that it goes contrary to what is hard-wired into our brains. Most people believe that it is more important to be right often vs. being right at the correct time. </p>
<p>This discussion of frequency vs. magnitude is leads to thinking in terms of expected value, i.e. being right when it counts. Problem is that people tend to prefer asymetric payoffs. </p>
<p>Nassim Taleb puts it this way: &#8220;In some strategies and life situations, it is said, one gambles dollars to win a succession of pennies. In others one risks a succession of pennies to win dollars. While one would think that the second category would be more appealing to investors and economic agents, we have an overwhelming evidence of the popularity of the first.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Trader Mike</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-530</link>
		<dc:creator>Trader Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 May 2004 14:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-530</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Mother Lode of Trading Articles&lt;/strong&gt;

Commodity Trader highlighted an article entitled 'Losing to Win over at Investopedia.com'. That article does a good job of expanding upon my expectancy article. After reading that article I discovered that Investopedia has a huge archive of articles on...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Mother Lode of Trading Articles</strong></p>
<p>Commodity Trader highlighted an article entitled &#8216;Losing to Win over at Investopedia.com&#8217;. That article does a good job of expanding upon my expectancy article. After reading that article I discovered that Investopedia has a huge archive of articles on&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-522</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2004 22:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://tradermike.net/2004/05/trading_101_expectancy/#comment-522</guid>
		<description>Mike,
Expectancy is some good stuff.  It changed how I look at the markets.  Glad that your spreading the word to your readers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,<br />
Expectancy is some good stuff.  It changed how I look at the markets.  Glad that your spreading the word to your readers!</p>
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